The Borderlands of Erotica
Iconic filmmaker and Queer Majority guest editor Bruce LaBruce sits down in conversation with the award-winning Brazilian director Gustavo Vinagre. They discuss the blurred line between erotic art films and pornography, the filmmaking process, why directors sometimes perform in their own work, the importance of the anus in queer erotica, and more. To preserve the organic flow of the dialog, this transcript has not been edited or altered.
Bruce: Gustavo, how are you?
Gustavo: I'm good and you?
B: So you're in Rio?
G: I'm in São Paulo.
B: Are you in São Paulo? So you live in São Paulo?
G: Yes, I live in São Paulo.
B: Oh, okay. Cool. Have you always lived in São Paulo or have you lived in Rio?
G: I lived in Rio 'til I was like 11 years old. I was born there. And then I moved to the countryside of São Paulo and then to São Paulo when I came to college.
B: So I've just been watching your films again. I've seen some of them, and I watched some for the first time. What — you know, for Queer Majority, I was writing about the difference between porn, for my — the piece I wrote, I was writing about the difference between porn — the distinction between porn and art or is there a distinction? Or should there, should there be a distinction? Or what is the definition of pornography? How do you feel about that? Because your work is very — has a lot of pornographic content, obviously, but it's very it's — very different from any other porn that I've ever seen.
G: Yeah, that's so hard to answer.
B: Yeah.
G: I think — Yeah. I, you know, I've shown my work also at porn websites, so I guess I could call them porn in a way. I think, maybe I think what defines if a film is a film and not TV is actually the media where the — the piece is showing. So I guess when I'm at a film festival showing my films at a big screen, I guess that could be called like a film with sexually explicit content. But if the same film is in a porn website, I guess then we can call it porn. I think that makes it easier too.
B: So context.
G: Yeah, context.
B: Yeah. Yeah, I talk about that in my piece where I can show a photo with a guy with a hard-on and publish it in a porn magazine and it's considered porn. And then I show, I frame the same photo and put it in an art gallery and it's considered art, so.
G: Yes, I think it has lots to do with context actually,
B: Yeah.
G: because if — if we look — if we compare to the other porns in like in a porn website, people maybe would say it's really different from regular porn. But if it's there, then it's still porn, anyway, I guess.
B: And have you ever considered doing — I'm sure people sometimes complain to you like they do to me. They say, “Oh, it's too arty.” It's like, “Why don't you just, you know, do porn? All the other stuff, the character stuff, the poet, the poetry only distracts from the — from my enjoyment of the porn.” What do you say to those people? Or have you ever considered doing what might be considered more what — “pure porn”?
G: I guess I would — I would do porn if I got like paid for it.
B: Yeah.
G: If there was like good money, maybe I would do porn. But I basically do those films with a very small amount of money and I do it because I really, like, believe, I really want to tell those stories. And so I guess I would only do porn if I was like getting paid. I don't think — I have pleasure in filming sex and doing explicit things and — and trying to push the limits.
But if you wanna push like something, I think you have to do it. If it's just porn, then it's not that interesting to me, you know, because I feel that what’s more interesting is like trying to — to put something unexpected inside a narrative. Like doing something very explicit inside a film that not necessarily needed it, you know? And then — because there's like, then you can try like the — the shock or — not that I'm trying to shock people, but it’s only — like in the friction, I think between, between art or film, and porn. That's where I'm interested more than porn itself.
B: And no one has ever asked you to make, like a, a regular porn film?
G: No, I never, I never heard those questions. Usually it’s more the contrary. Like people asking me to do a more safe kind of film, like, why don't you do, like, a regular film?
B: Right. Without porn?
G: Yeah.
B: But then within the — within the context of the kind of pornographic imagery that you use, I mean, you do go even farther than a lot of porn goes. I mean, like, for example, your — I guess it's, is it Unlearning to Sleep where you get fisted at the end?
G: Yes.
B: Yeah.
G: Yes
B: That is like — do you find it hard to kind of either — like to find places to show that kind of work? Or because it is so extremely pornographic — or what people “consider” extremely pornographic?
G: I think that film is very specific because I shot it during the pandemic. I think there is like several things that made the film not to be as shown as I would like. I think it's because it was during the pandemic, I think it also is read as if there isn’t as much production value as it could have because I shot everything on my cell phone. And so it has like this very raw kind of image that a cell phone brings. I think all of that and of course, the sex made the film not to be as shown as I would wish. It was actually, it was very little-shown, like only at the Berlin Porn Film Festival, where it got like the best film prize.
B: Yeah. What year was that?
G: It was 2022.
B: Okay.
G: Yeah. And then it was shown at a Brazilian festival and it was only like an online version of the Brazilian festival because it was during the pandemic. So... But I also — also think that maybe the — maybe the world got I don't know, more conservative also. Because for example, when I shot Nova Dubai in — I shot it in 2013, more than ten years ago, 11 years ago. The film — I thought the film wouldn't be shown anywhere because it was explicit, because it was like a medium-length film. It wasn't like a regular, like a feature or a short was — 15 minutes long.
And actually, the film went super well. Like it — it was released in Rotterdam Film Festival, it was shown at Torino Film Festival, it was like really shown at regular festivals that weren't like porn festivals or queer festivals. And it was shown as a feature, as a short, as a medium-length. So back then, the film was much more — it was much more successful than I would expect. And now, I don't know what actually happened with Unlearning to Sleep, if it has to do with the way —
B: Well, Unlearning to Sleep is very, also — it's very scatological in general.
G: Yes, I think it’s also kind of the thing that helps the film not being as shown.
B: But it's also very personal. I mean, it's very — and very emotional. I mean, to end up — to finish the film, like with your lover's arm up your ass. I mean, this is a very strong statement you know? And in fact, a lot of your films end either with — begin or end with an asshole
G: Yes.
B: somehow.
B: So what is the — how can you, can you talk a bit about what this kind of idea of the asshole and the importance of the anus in your work and how — why that is so central? How that relates to I guess, to homosexuality, maybe to also — to HIV and...?
G: Well, as I told you, I think I like to show, aspects — and actually show like parts of the body that aren’t shown usually. Like in The Blue Flower of Novalis we start with the character’s ass like in the sun. And he's like —
B: Yeah.
G: taking
G: He’s taking his vitamin D
B: Right.
G: through the ass.
B: Which he doesn't even like to do.
G: Yes. And I think it has to do, like with changing — changing a bit the hierarchy of the body in the cinema, trying to — like the ass is up where the head should be. It's like, trying a bit to take
B: Yes.
G: the importance of rationality and like the leadership of the head. And I think in Unlearning to Sleep we talk about that also with all the characters that are shown in Grindr have pictures without the head, and when the alien talks about his tattoo, that is headless. And so I think it has to do with like trying to put light in parts that we usually don't give importance to. But—
B: Or that are — or that are shameful.
G: Or are shameful. And they are actually like part of our daily life. The ass is there all the time and we are really aware of it. And it's a very like important time of the day when we go to take a shit or things like that, and… Yeah. I think it just tries to make it natural, like being human and having a whole body that isn't just about like our thoughts in our heads and what we say and speak.
B: And yet, there’s also a lot of poets in your film and you know. So the idea of what's in the head, poetry, philosophy, is also very important to you.
G: Yes. But I was actually a poet when I was a teenager. That's what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be. And I used to write a lot — lots of poems. And that's how I got to know Glauco, the blind poet, and I sent him all my poems.
B: In your film, Film for Blind Poet? Yeah.
G: Yeah, yeah. I sent him all my poems, and then back then — in 2000, eight, seven. He asked me my address and then he sent me back all his books to my house and I studied literature in the university. So literature and poetry was always like something that was very inspiring to me and that I think, somewhere in my head that's what I really wanted to do. And then — I mean, my life just changed and shifted into other stuff, but… Yeah, I’m really interested also in characters that are artists, not only poets, but most of my documentaries are about people who are really self-aware.
And they can repeat. I do documentaries that are very like low-budget and that my first feature I shot in one night. I shot a friend and actress Julia and, usually it's like one day, three days, two days of shooting. It's very simple and I think I'm really attracted to those characters because they — despite I'm doing a documentary, they are self-aware and they can repeat, and they understand the — the ways that I shoot and the importance to me that I need to make a very short set to fit my budget.
So it's very important to me that I'm dealing, even if it's a documentary, that I'm documenting artists in a way, because then they understand the importance of repeating or making it right. It's not only about expecting their reality to come and to show in front of the camera. It's about recreating that reality with a character.
B: Right. Like, so the character in The Blue Flower of Novalis for example —
G: Yes.
B: is a poet?
G: No. He's actually nothing. Well, that's what he said. I think he has like a very — an artist spirit.
B: Spirit, yeah.
G: Yeah. But he —
B: He kind of refuses to produce anything.
G: Yes, exactly. Yeah.
B: So it seems like some of your characters are — they have a very — I mean, in a way he seems to be kind of in an existential bind of some kind. And the same with The Blind Poet who's a — he's an existentialist, but who embraces you know, his identity as a blind man through his existential kind of philosophy.
But — but quite often, very you know, I guess you would say marginalized characters, but kind of in exile of some — some kind of exile, or whether it's self-imposed or imposed by others, and maybe to the outward viewer they seem very melancholy and kind of very tortured even — in some ways. Do you think — is there a — what attracts you to those kinds of characters?
G: I think what attracts me is their — I think it has to do with like, being able to share their dreams, and fantasies, and fetishes. I think all my documentaries are actually trying to document, like the inner images of each one of those characters, their projections, their desires, what they actually dream when they go to sleep.
So I think — yeah, basically they attract me — their capacity to — to share what's inside of them and to re-imagine their lives inside a film. And yeah, to recreate and re-imagine and to share with me like their — those images that are inside of their minds. And I mean, The Blind Poet, for example my original idea of the film was like to investigate how much of Glauco, the character, how much of him was himself. Because that's not his real name, that's the name he uses for years, for writing.
And I wanted to understand how much of that is a character that he created for writing his poetry and the film in the first place would be like an investigation to see who's — who is the man behind that character. But then I realized that it doesn't matter. I mean, I just want to keep creating that idea of himself that he has been creating for years and I just wanna go like dive into his poet and poetry world, like the images he creates and bring that to the film, to the surface of the film.
B: But do you identify with the alienation of the characters? Or the — the outsiderness of the of the characters?
G: I think so, yes. I think I identify myself in a way, and — and they also are very resilient. I think, like Glauco, the blind poet I think in the end, he's also — is like a winner in the way he wants to be shown. He likes — he says that he like, he overcame all the abuse he went through and that, the abuse like helps him accept his blindness and the blindness helped him accept the world and the abuse itself. So I think they also have in the end, like a positive like, a positive message, you could say.
B: Yeah, a lot of the characters that were abused — like there is I guess it's the guy in — the fellow in The Blue Flower of Novalis was also raped by his brother?
G: Yes, by his brother.
B: Abused by his father. And in Nova Dubai there is a character that appears that was gang-raped?
G: Gang-raped and — and I don't know, I was never really like, attracted to those stories particularly. I wasn’t like, going for them. They would just appear at everything that I was doing. So maybe it's something of my unconsciousness that is attracting me to those topics, but maybe it has to do with our community also. You know, how — just how much
B: Yeah.
G: we are like —
B: Internalize, maybe?
G: Yeah, how we are sensitive, how we are fragile. I mean, we are like as children — we are like maybe perfect victims for those things to happen.
B: Well, I think it's very interesting the way that a lot of them then acknowledge how that kind of experience affects their sex life and their — their sexual identity, and particularly how they receive and give pleasure sexually is very much — is very much connected to those experiences of abuse and — and not necessarily in a shameful you know, way. As a more — as a way of accepting or coping?
G: And I just wanted to know — you to know that I sent you some films that, basically only the films that have explicit sex because I figured that you wouldn’t have the time to watch everything. But there are more films, there are like maybe the double of it that does not have like, explicit sex. It's not — I'm also interested in other kind of — of stories also. I do, I also have like several short films that are really cute and funny, and very light.
B: Yeah.
G: But I didn't send to you because I’m guessing it wasn't a topic you wanted.
B: So maybe, can you, maybe, can you relate that to how the gay, the queer experience in Brazil and specifically and how, that is expressed through your films. Is it more or less brutal than other places, in terms of coping with that — with homophobia, with the culture?
G: Well, it's very hard to say because well, I know the numbers and I know that Brazil is a very violent place for the queer community, especially trans people, that we are like the country in the world that is the biggest killer of the trans community. There are a lot of trans that are killed here and — but also it has to do with several — I mean, I feel very safe, but I'm very privileged because I'm a white cis man.
I guess if you are a lesbian, it's harder, if you are trans, it's harder, if you have to move through different kinds of neighborhoods to go to work, or to go to study, or things like that. It could be rough, but personally, I never experienced violence here. Of course, I was bullied when I was a kid at school and things like that. But at the end, if you are like an artist, you make cinema, and then you travel, you show your films, you're kind of respected in a certain space that welcomes you and you feel safe, so to me, it's kind of easy for me. But I know — I mean, Brazil is actually very conservative, very religious, and now we have like this — now we are like a majority of evangelical people in the country and — that are very very conservative.
And so with the years of Bolsonaro also like the thing got worse but now it's getting a bit better. But yeah, and for the arts also I think it's gotten worse with the time. Like, because Bolsonaro also started like, to persecute artists that were talking about queerness and sexuality. He was openly like, trying to cut fundings for cinema by showing what kind of faggotry people were doing in cinema. Like what kind of films, and then he was like this “We cannot keep giving money to that kind of film.” Actually, The Blue Flower of Novalis, that was one of his ministers — he called, like a meeting with several producers from Brazil, very important producers were there.
B: Bolsonaro did?
G: I wasn’t there. One of his ministers.
B: Yeah.
G: Yeah. And that guy showed the poster of The Blue Flower of Novalis and he just, like ripped it and said “We cannot support this kind of cinema.” And people were like “That film is self-funded. That film does not have any kind of public funding. So what are you talking about?” So that's the level of — yeah, we were kind of persecuted during the Bolsonaro years, but that has changed happily. But you know, he can come back anytime, so.
B: Yeah. Well look what's going on in Chile and Argentina. I mean, it's never you know, it’s cyclical. Things come back in cycles, oppression.
G: Yeah. And also like in the Internet, they had several tweets with my entire name and all my like, my data with my number, my number of my identity, the number of my documents.
B: Really they published it?
G: They had everything. Yeah! And saying that I was the director of the ass movie.
B: Oh my God.
G: And that I owed money to the government because I had received like a huge amount of money to make the film, which were all lies, of course, because the film was — I made myself with my money, and very little money. So those kind of things have been happening, but I hope it gets better. It already feels better now.
B: Yeah, that's good. I wanted to — you said the film you made — the film, one of the films during the pandemic.
G: Unlearning to Sleep? Yeah.
B: What I wanted to talk about — Três Tigres Tristes which is very much a pandemic movie. It was made during the pandemic?
G: It was also made during the pandemic. But actually,
B: Yeah.
G: the project changed a lot because that's like the only film I had like official funding to make, and —
B: Is it also the only film you've made that is completely narrative without any direct camera address or kind of like, other kind of elements imposed onto the inside of the narrative? distancing techniques, or whatever? I mean, is it more —
G: Yeah, I think it's more conventional in a way.
B: In a way.
G: In a way, yeah.
B: I love it. It’s one of my favorites.
G: Aw thank you.
B: Yeah.
G: Yeah I think it's very fun, and — so the film changed a lot because we were supposed to have shot in March 2020, but then like part of the crew was coming from other parts of Brazil to shoot. And then the pandemic started and then we had to stop everything and — and we didn't know what to do. Like we just waited, and waited, and waited and Bolsonaro was in the — was the president, and he kind of almost shut down ANCINE, which is like the — the cinema organ that we have here. And they wouldn’t like tell us what to do if we had more — they wouldn't tell us if we could have more — a bigger deadline to give the film ready to them, or if they would give us like an extra budget for the safety protocols.
So we were kind of lost for a year and a half. And in that year and a half, I shot Unlearning to Sleep in my apartment just waiting to see what was going on with Três Tigres Tristes. And then basically I just like rewrote the whole film because the deadline to finish the film was getting close and we decided to do the film in June 2021. And so I decided to embrace the pandemic because to me, it made no sense to shoot a film during the pandemic, pretending not to be in the pandemic. So the actual script changed a lot, a lot, a lot. And then it got smaller also because it was a much bigger film with many musical moments, all the characters singing, and then I just cleaned all that up because I knew our budget would be impacted by the safety protocols that we would need to save some money for that. And yeah, so the film was very much transformed by the pandemic.
B: Well, I love that it's like a picaresque of — with three characters, following three characters who encounter all these very interesting characters along the way. And I love how the memory, the idea of the loss of memory. Which was a kind of symptom of some people who got, you know, the virus they had memory loss or got brain fog or something. So that was very — I love the way that you incorporated that into the movie. But how did you find those three main characters? They were so great.
G: Yes, it was basically online because I knew I wanted them to look very young and, so it was hard to find actors that were like — like real actors. Because in this film I wanted to work only with like professional actors because usually I work with non-actors and I do those things sometimes, I do something a lot and then I just decide, no — now I want to do the opposite.
B: Yeah. I do that, too.
G: Yeah. Yeah, and then I decided I wanted to do only actors, so it was like searching a lot. I did several interviews and tests with several very young actors that I would find on Instagram, and they would have to have like a certain look, first of all, and they would have to be like at least studying to be actors. And then I would like, interview them, and see basically if we were like — if we had like, things in common and if we were like talking the same kind of language.
And then I would send them a small scene and they would send back to me. And that's basically how I got to them. The two boys are professional actors, the trans girl it was harder because as I told you, trans are really in a bad situation in Brazil and they usually, they give up going to school because they suffer so much violence that they give up at a very early age to study. So the girl was the only one who wasn't like an actress.
B: Yeah, she's great. And of course, her character is trying to go to school.
G: Yes.
B: Yeah. Yeah, I love that, they're all kind of somewhat non-binary. I mean, she is trans and the other two are kind of non-binary and it's like a very — it's unique to have those three kinds of characters. Well, even the two of them — the two boys in the same age. One is the uncle of the other?
G: Yes.
B: And then the trans girl. And they don't really have any kind of sexual interest in each other? They're just kind of like three friends on their adventure together. Which I think is incredibly sweet. And it's just — it's a very sweet kind of film about very charming characters.
G: Oh, that's great.
B: Yeah.
G: I was going to say that to me it was very important that Isabela, the girl, that she was like really focused on studying on her future and she's the only one who doesn't have like, a love interest in some other character, because I just felt that usually that's where trans women are usually shown as like searching for love or for — so I tried to make it like, she to me was the future, looking to the future and to study, and to — and then the black boy to me is the present. And he's only like, responding to everything that's happening to him at the moment. And the other boy, Baby Face, is the past. He’s like grieving for his dead lover.
B: I love the scene where he’s having sex with his dead lover’s — with his accordion.
G: Yes.
B: Which is very somehow, poetic and awkward at the same time. So, we’ve — I think we've gotten, you know, most of what I wanted to ask you about. I just wanted to talk maybe a bit about — and we touched on this before, but in Nova Dubai, I mean, the — you quite often insert yourself in your own films having sex and quite often — it seems, it's hard to tell what is staged and what isn't. So for example, in the infamous scene in Nova Dubai with the — where you have the three-way with a construction worker, the very hot construction worker — how did that happen? And was — how real was it? Is it totally staged?
G: Actually, I never thought of exposing myself.
B: Was that the first time — was that the first time you had sex on-screen?
G: Yes. I think it all began with The Blind Poet, because The Blind Poet, I was naked in front of the whole crew and the crew was like — they didn't really trust me as a director. I felt really exposed and they were like laughing. And they — I don't know, it was my first short film ever. So I was — I wasn't feeling that secure and I felt exposed, and being exposed like naked in front of the crew that doesn't really believe in your work — it just like changed something inside me. Like I felt much stronger after that experience. Like, I just felt that I could give a fuck to anything. Like, I don't care anymore. Like, I just felt that something changed.
B: Giving no fucks.
G: What?
B: Giving no fucks.
G: Yeah, something changed inside me, and I just — I was always very timid, very shy. And there, I think something changed. And I started like, I don't care about anybody's opinion anymore after that, you know? And then when I was like starting to produce Nova Dubai I realized that I was, like, inviting all my friends to have sex on camera, and that I wouldn't have, like, money to convince an actor to do that role.
And I wouldn't also have, like, the time, the proper time to prepare an actor to believe — make an actor believe that that is really necessary you know? So it was almost like a production strategy to be the actor because I knew I didn't have the money to pay anybody else and I knew all my friends were like, they wanted, they accepted to be on camera and I guess they would feel like, safer if they felt like the director was also like, exposing himself.
B: Yeah, I used to — I started out with the same rule. Never ask anybody to do anything in a film, or a photographer that you wouldn't do yourself.
G: Exactly. I think that was the strategy I had to make them
B: Yeah.
G: feel more comfortable in front of the camera. And that's how I decided to be the actor, and —
B: And the construction worker?
G: Yeah. He was the only porn actor that we had. He was the only one because actually, the guy who plays the father of the friend that I fucked in that — like in the car, he was a porn director. Porn porn. He directed porn. And he like said, “Oh I could invite this guy that I worked with as an actor some years ago and maybe he would accept.”
And that's what we did. Like, he was there, but he was actually a very good actor because all the way that he describes — because first we interview them, that is something that I think that film plays a lot with. With documentary language, though it's completely fictional. We are like, always using some parts that look documented.
B: Well, you do that in a lot of your films, actually.
G: Yeah, because I like to make people, yeah. To blur the line and make people like, wonder “Oh, is this for real? Is that what I'm —”
B: Yeah.
G: So I'm happy that you felt that you weren’t sure because — yeah he was a very good actor and the way he describes the construction site, the way he tells his story
B: Yes.
G: about him fucking a girl inside a construction site is very like, very good. He’s very — his imagination is so good.
B: Well then you intercut him with other characters who seem to be real construction —
G: Yeah, those are real workers. Yeah. And, but it also like felt very real because we were actually shooting in those places on daylight without permission to shoot. So we were always like stealing the images. So it was always very fast. And for example, that scene with the construction worker — we were like in a Sunday, the construction site was closed and we kind of invaded. And in front of the construction site, there was like a place with guys like showcasing the future apartment, how it would be.
So we just actually parked our — we parked our van in front of the guy so the guy couldn't see the construction site. And then the director, the assistant director was there talking to the guy, just distracting him while we were like fucking in the construction site so nobody would notice, you know? So things like that.
B: Well, I love the way also — it's like they're talking about how they're — I mean, there’s always proletariat characters in your film, and ideas about class. You know? There's a lot of class consciousness and that the construction workers are building this building that they would never be able to afford to live in. And then you have the sex scene with the real estate guy.
G: Yes.
B: Was he — he wasn't a porn actor?
G: No. The real estate guy was my husband for eight years.
B: Oh, ok.
G: And he is the one who acts with me in Unlearning to Sleep, also.
B: Okay. Nice.
G: But back then, we were just like starting, that was like our first year of relationship.
B: And there's so many parallels between you and me, in terms of filmmaking and everything, because I started out the same way with, you know, only performing sexually in my films because I knew that I could do it myself. I wouldn't have to pay anyone. And it made everyone else more comfortable performing sex. And then I had my boyfriend at the time play The Skinhead in my first movie that I have sex with.
So yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of parallels there. But, you know, I find Nova Dubai, so the character that ends up — hanging himself at the end — maybe just talk a little bit, maybe about the ending of that film because it's so — I mean it remind — you mentioned “batai”, you know, in some of your work and it seems like a very “batai” kind of ending. Like, because it's almost like his — the fulfillment of his fantasy or his wish, you know, at the end of the film.
G: Yes, I think —
B: And is that based on a real character?
G: Yes, that's — he was a very close friend of mine and he was a poet also. And I really enjoyed his poetry. And he had tried several times to suicide for real. And yeah, though it looks very sad, at the same time it's like, I think the film wants to fulfill his dream in a way, you know? So he gets what he wants. He talks about dying throughout the whole film. And then basically it's like he accomplishes it. It's almost like, yeah, like the fulfillment of desire. So of course it's about death and there's some melancholy to it, but to me it's like a happy ending, I think.
B: Yeah, that’s how I read it as well. Okay, the last question. You're one of the few filmmakers who — I think you have a character with HIV almost in all of your films, and it's a lot of people talking about the issues around HIV. How is that — is that really, important for you to make that — those characters? Like almost in the same way that you said to cut off the head and talk about, you know, the asshole which is the — an essential part of everyone that we think about every day but no one ever represents on film. It's kind of similar to HIV that, that it's not represented.
G: Yeah. To me, it’s like a very conscious choice because I think, we were all very directly being gay and being in the LGBTQ community, like we were very directly affected by this virus. Even if, like I — when I was born in ‘85, like I kind of had to learn all my sex life and love life, everything was through this prisma of HIV, though I never like, really like suffered like, I didn't have like a friend who died or something like that, but all my sentimental education had to be aware of HIV. So I think it's something that is very important, that usually we don't talk about. I think there is still a huge stigma and people don't know like the basic, they don't know that undetectable is untransmissible.
B: Right, I love that the hairless hamster’s name is Untransmissible.
G: Yes. And that, I really like — I wanted people to know that. That’s why I gave that character that name. I wanted them to — because people don't know nothing about PrEP.
B: In Três Tigres Tristes, yeah.
G: Yeah, yeah. People still to this day, they don't know what PrEP is. They don't know that people who have HIV and treat themselves can have sex without condoms and they will not, in fact — the other person — people know nothing
B: Yeah.
G: because there's so much fear and so much prejudice, and so much stigma in this. And that was like a creation of the media in the ‘80s and the media doesn't try like a bit to recreate that, to change that. Like to me, when they finally — science finally discovered that untransmissible is undetectable it’s the same thing, that should be like in the cover of every newspaper, of every magazine. And that didn't happen. It's just like a short thing and like this size in a page of a newspaper.
B: Yeah.
G: So it's very uneven what happened in the ‘80s with, where the disease is now. Like, people don't know. So to me it’s a very conscious
B: Yeah
G: decision to talk about it.
B: Yeah it's weird. There is like so much denial about the disease itself, and then there was just as much denial about the cure. The — not the cure, but the cocktail that —
G: Yeah.
B: That kind of save — it started saving everyone's life and allowing them to have sex again. And no one ever talked about it. That's, yeah. That's — I think that’s really a cool part of your work.
Okay. I think that's all the time we have but —
G: Ok.
B: thanks for doing this.
G: Thank you so much. I loved it. Well, if you have any other questions or doubts, you can send me an —
B: Okay. And I’ll probably ask you for some visuals as well.
G: Okay, perfect.
B: Okay. Thanks, Gustavo. And also I hope I'll see you in November.
G: Yes, I hope so.
B: Yay. Okay. Bye, bye.
Published in Issue XII: Cinema